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	<title>Comments on: Ecco Pro &#8212; back from the dead, again</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/</link>
	<description>Technology, politics, culture</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Pierre</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-996</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 04:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-996</guid>
		<description>The ideal information management app must be an excellent outliner with multiple parents support (when required), an excellent linker (i.e. like the web), an excellent tagger, an excellent editor supporting rich text editing in the outline AND in a second rich text window, support flat and tree-structured display with or without a data grid, usable as a flexible database supporting calculations and reporting and an have excellent search engine. Plus it needs to have a customizable UI, support drag-drop and have links to all other major apps.

Only if you have all these features can you adequately organize all kinds of information, not just a specific kind.
Yes Ecco is/was an excellent outliner+data grid, but had no item to item linker, and forced structured tree representation, which may or may not suit the specific information or the way a particular person wants to work/organize its information. It had rich text outlines and customizable UI but for the rest, the above features were not great or not there at all. If Ecco-Ext is an amazing effort to bring a second life to Ecco, even with Ecco-Ext, most of the above features are missing.

SQLNotes development started 4 years ago and is now in beta tests. It takes the best of Ecco, and improves upon it, taking the concept much further. It has ALL of the above features.

The current beta available at www.sqlnotes.net is very stable. You are all welcomed to download a free copy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ideal information management app must be an excellent outliner with multiple parents support (when required), an excellent linker (i.e. like the web), an excellent tagger, an excellent editor supporting rich text editing in the outline AND in a second rich text window, support flat and tree-structured display with or without a data grid, usable as a flexible database supporting calculations and reporting and an have excellent search engine. Plus it needs to have a customizable UI, support drag-drop and have links to all other major apps.</p>
<p>Only if you have all these features can you adequately organize all kinds of information, not just a specific kind.<br />
Yes Ecco is/was an excellent outliner+data grid, but had no item to item linker, and forced structured tree representation, which may or may not suit the specific information or the way a particular person wants to work/organize its information. It had rich text outlines and customizable UI but for the rest, the above features were not great or not there at all. If Ecco-Ext is an amazing effort to bring a second life to Ecco, even with Ecco-Ext, most of the above features are missing.</p>
<p>SQLNotes development started 4 years ago and is now in beta tests. It takes the best of Ecco, and improves upon it, taking the concept much further. It has ALL of the above features.</p>
<p>The current beta available at <a href="http://www.sqlnotes.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.sqlnotes.net</a> is very stable. You are all welcomed to download a free copy.</p>
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		<title>By: Chet</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-1000</link>
		<dc:creator>Chet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 22:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-1000</guid>
		<description>(Sorry, premature post)

That said, I was a user of Ecco back in the day, and I'm not sure that OO can truly replace it across the board. That's not to say people aren't trying; OO is being used as a platform for a variety of things, including implementations of David Allen's GTD cult. It doesn't have built-in PIM functions, though; it's just a powerful outliner with scripting support.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Sorry, premature post)</p>
<p>That said, I was a user of Ecco back in the day, and I&#8217;m not sure that OO can truly replace it across the board. That&#8217;s not to say people aren&#8217;t trying; OO is being used as a platform for a variety of things, including implementations of David Allen&#8217;s GTD cult. It doesn&#8217;t have built-in PIM functions, though; it&#8217;s just a powerful outliner with scripting support.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chet</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-999</link>
		<dc:creator>Chet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 22:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-999</guid>
		<description>"Outliner + grid" aptly describes one way of working with OmniOutliner, which is a great program from the Omni Group. It's Mac-only, but I've seen people make platform switches for sillier reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Outliner + grid&#8221; aptly describes one way of working with OmniOutliner, which is a great program from the Omni Group. It&#8217;s Mac-only, but I&#8217;ve seen people make platform switches for sillier reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-993</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-993</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the tip on sqlnotes -- looks interesting, I'll check it out.

One of those program names that doesn't exactly reach out beyond the geek crowd, though :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the tip on sqlnotes &#8212; looks interesting, I&#8217;ll check it out.</p>
<p>One of those program names that doesn&#8217;t exactly reach out beyond the geek crowd, though :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-991</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-991</guid>
		<description>The thing that would be quite easy to copy from Ecco was the combination of an outline pane with a spreadsheet-type grid. There is a programme trying to do just that, called sqlnotes.

What would be harder -- and I think this is where Chandler came unstuck -- is to fill in the missing bits of Ecco's functionality, which are, essentially Email and other message hoarding. When the program was first released, keeping contact records was really a matter of writing down what people told you on the phone. Things are more complicated now. Most of my contacts with anyone today are electronic, and to keep up the usefulness and intuitive simplicity of Ecco there, it would have to handle email. That isn't trivial.

Curiously, Eco's calendaring and workgroup functions still seem entirely fine to me. In any case, it wouldn't be much of a stretch at all to synch Ecco's Calendar with Google's. There are apis at both ends. It is sad that this is what Chandler ended up doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that would be quite easy to copy from Ecco was the combination of an outline pane with a spreadsheet-type grid. There is a programme trying to do just that, called sqlnotes.</p>
<p>What would be harder &#8212; and I think this is where Chandler came unstuck &#8212; is to fill in the missing bits of Ecco&#8217;s functionality, which are, essentially Email and other message hoarding. When the program was first released, keeping contact records was really a matter of writing down what people told you on the phone. Things are more complicated now. Most of my contacts with anyone today are electronic, and to keep up the usefulness and intuitive simplicity of Ecco there, it would have to handle email. That isn&#8217;t trivial.</p>
<p>Curiously, Eco&#8217;s calendaring and workgroup functions still seem entirely fine to me. In any case, it wouldn&#8217;t be much of a stretch at all to synch Ecco&#8217;s Calendar with Google&#8217;s. There are apis at both ends. It is sad that this is what Chandler ended up doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ehud</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-1001</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-1001</guid>
		<description>That's the irony!
If this was clear from the Ecco story (as well as others), it's ironic that people attempted the Chandler project...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s the irony!<br />
If this was clear from the Ecco story (as well as others), it&#8217;s ironic that people attempted the Chandler project&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-998</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-998</guid>
		<description>Not sure I get the irony -- maybe I've lived with it for too long to see it :-)

One of the things that first interested me (and a lot of other people) about Chandler was its free-form-PIM concept (inherited from Lotus Agenda), though the product gradually evolved away from that idea. And the lessons learned from observing the Chandler story, to me at any rate (the danger of investing too much in reinventing a back end and building from scratch, the possibility that new trends like web-based applications will overtake your plan if you delay too much, etc.), are very much in sync with these observations about Ecco.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure I get the irony &#8212; maybe I&#8217;ve lived with it for too long to see it :-)</p>
<p>One of the things that first interested me (and a lot of other people) about Chandler was its free-form-PIM concept (inherited from Lotus Agenda), though the product gradually evolved away from that idea. And the lessons learned from observing the Chandler story, to me at any rate (the danger of investing too much in reinventing a back end and building from scratch, the possibility that new trends like web-based applications will overtake your plan if you delay too much, etc.), are very much in sync with these observations about Ecco.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ehud</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-992</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-992</guid>
		<description>hanks.
It is, of course, ironic that this explanation comes from someone who studied  Chandler...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hanks.<br />
It is, of course, ironic that this explanation comes from someone who studied  Chandler&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-997</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-997</guid>
		<description>Well,  the "goodness" of an idea is only one ingredient in getting a product developed. The general interpretation of the Ecco story, that you can find in &lt;a href="http://archive.salon.com/21st/rose/1999/03/05straight2.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;this old column of mine&lt;/a&gt; as well as in Andrew Brown's piece that I linked to in my post, is that once Microsoft won the PIM game, most software companies decided PIMs were over. Also, Ecco was a mature product: amazingly bug-free, solid, reliable (I've used it for a decade and *never* lost a piece of data to a crash). Getting a new program coded to that level would not happen overnight.

 More recently, anyone developing in the PIM space is doing Web-based stuff, mostly. Someday I think someone will do a Web-based Ecco and it will be astonishingly useful. (Backpack is fun but nowhere near as versatile. Jotspot looked like it was heading in the right direction, too, and now it's part of Google, so we'll see where that goes.) So, right, waiting for an open source version isn't the "only option," but the other option -- building an Ecco-like client-based program from scratch -- just seems highly unlikely. Though what slangmgh is doing suggests that his alternate route -- of not building from scratch but radically renovating from the outside in -- might prove surprisingly effective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well,  the &#8220;goodness&#8221; of an idea is only one ingredient in getting a product developed. The general interpretation of the Ecco story, that you can find in <a href="http://archive.salon.com/21st/rose/1999/03/05straight2.html" rel="nofollow">this old column of mine</a> as well as in Andrew Brown&#8217;s piece that I linked to in my post, is that once Microsoft won the PIM game, most software companies decided PIMs were over. Also, Ecco was a mature product: amazingly bug-free, solid, reliable (I&#8217;ve used it for a decade and *never* lost a piece of data to a crash). Getting a new program coded to that level would not happen overnight.</p>
<p> More recently, anyone developing in the PIM space is doing Web-based stuff, mostly. Someday I think someone will do a Web-based Ecco and it will be astonishingly useful. (Backpack is fun but nowhere near as versatile. Jotspot looked like it was heading in the right direction, too, and now it&#8217;s part of Google, so we&#8217;ll see where that goes.) So, right, waiting for an open source version isn&#8217;t the &#8220;only option,&#8221; but the other option &#8212; building an Ecco-like client-based program from scratch &#8212; just seems highly unlikely. Though what slangmgh is doing suggests that his alternate route &#8212; of not building from scratch but radically renovating from the outside in &#8212; might prove surprisingly effective.</p>
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		<title>By: Ehud</title>
		<link>http://www.wordyard.com/2007/09/04/ecco-pro/#comment-994</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 13:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wordyard.com/?p=1378#comment-994</guid>
		<description>I am curious. If the idea is so good, why didn't anyone copy the functionality and produce a new product? Is there a patent in place? Otherwise I don't see why the only option is to wait for the company to release the product as open source.
It'd be interesting to here more details about this story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am curious. If the idea is so good, why didn&#8217;t anyone copy the functionality and produce a new product? Is there a patent in place? Otherwise I don&#8217;t see why the only option is to wait for the company to release the product as open source.<br />
It&#8217;d be interesting to here more details about this story.</p>
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